Thursday, November 09, 2006

Don't Make Decisions By the "Ick Factor"

In response to this Slate article.

Now that the Supreme Court is talking a great deal about topics it knows very little about again, all the yahoos are coming back out to play. I know they have a degree that says "doctor" in it, but that's not for being a medical doctor. I'm not for late-term abortions outside of medical necessity. On the other hand, I have some grave concerns for a law that doesn't take medical necessity into account, and requires deciding input from someone who isn't a doctor. But I'm not talking about this law.

I'm talking about an argument tactic that some people use. I see it time and time again - the squicked out reader hits that paragraph that describes the process of a late-term abortion and just freaks out. They start calling anyone who could do this a monster, etc.

Banning this because you think the procedure is gross is NOT acceptable. Laws are made with the head.

I hate to break it to you squeamish types, but being a doctor is full of things like that. People require some amazing ends to keep them alive. Medicine is full of things I wish to God never had to happen to even my worst enemy.

I remember talking to an acquaintance of mine who is an opthamologist about a particularly intense scleral buckle she had installed. Or how about debriding a major burn?

Note the tone of the instructions. They're the same. I could have come up with some really cool ones, like mitigating obstetrical fistulas or a cauterizing vasectomy, but I didn't want to have the entire audience under the table.

I'm not unsympathetic to those feelings. I found a release form for doing that debriding thing to children who had 3rd degree burns and just thinking about that made me shiver. But I don't make my decisions based on that.

Think about it. Do we start banning open heart surgery because just the sound of cracking a chest will give you nightmares and describing the rest of the process makes some people feel icky? No. That would be ridiculous.

So why do you think in cases where there is real danger to the mother, banning this procedure is okay? The only reason I've seen you give is because you don't approve of the required steps and they gross you out. And because of that you think that it should never ever be able to happen even when there's risk to the mother? Or that someone who's not even a doctor and works banker's hours is supposedly going to make that choice fast enough in the emergency circumstances where this might be appropriate? It can't be because of risk - open heart surgery is just as much a life and death situation.

That's what this law requires. That's what you are suggesting that the Supreme court use as it's criteria. I have some concerns they're going to make a good decision here even with all this advice they've been getting and all that education they have. I have no faith at all in your tossing tummy as a rubric.

I don't know what those lawmakers were thinking. They have a blueprint to write this law in a legal fashion, but they chose not to. I don't know why. Maybe the lawmakers were too grossed out by that description, too, and followed their heaving bellies instead of legal reality.

We have a real problem here people, and if you're too faint-hearted to face it with your brain instead of your stomach, then shut up and faint quietly in the corner. Real life and real people have some gross parts, and we have real work to do getting this situation dealt with.

3 comments:

JohnMcG said...

Partial birth abortions aren't passed because people are squeamish about blood. Otherwise, the procedures you linked to would also be banned. It is banned because it is morally repugnant.

The idea that it's all about "ick" is a neat strawman that you set up. Our reason can work through these other treatments because the end is healing the patient. With partial-birth abortion, there's nothing to get past, because the destruction of the fetus is the end itself.

And you don't need a medical degree to know that, so I will not go quietly into the corner.

JohnMcG said...

I really find Lithwick's argument disgusting for reasons I've outlined before.

For sure, she falls back on her usual lazy habit of subtituting scare quotes for argument, but we're used to that by now.

My real problem is with her "trust the doctors." Sorry, no. I like my doctor, and my wife and children's doctors, but I am not wiling to let the doctor with the least limiting ethics set the policy for everyone else.

Congressmen and judeges set policy in fields outside of their domain of expertise all the time. It's called civilian control of the military.

Why does it require a medical degree to determine wheter Congress has the right to restrict (and I'm trying to frame this as neutrally as I can) the extraction of brain material from a fetus?

MsZilla said...

I never suggested it was "all about ick". I suggested that for some other people it seems to be and that is no way to set policy. I never once suggested that I agree with late term abortion. Nor am I even discussing Lithwick's soi disant argument.

Apparently you don't read the discussions of your fellows too much. See here for a particularly piteous example. Oh, and while you're at it you might want to re-read what I actually said.

Before we go any farther I want to say if you really don't think there is any possible situation where the risk of the life of the mother should outweigh the loss of the life of the child, then please just say it now and it will save us all a huge argument. You'll get points for honesty with me, but you can just as well stop reading right here.

Speaking of strawmen, you've got a whole flock. Here's some questions for you and them. Better make sure all their burlap heads are on good and tight.

Are you actually using the word "Congressman" and the word "ethics" in that manner? Think about what you wrote. Even if I was like you and discounted 14 years of schooling and medical knowledge so thoroughly this still doesn't make any sense. You'd rather Newt Gingrich, Mark Foley and 700 or so of their closest friends make your ethical choices? Yeah. Okay.

Moving right along to the one on the left. You keep going on about the technique itself. If I read that last paragraph correctly - the fetal brain extraction part of it itself is the problem.

Say you have a case where there is a medically necessary situation. You have what you wanted - all partial birth procedures are banned no matter what. No brain extraction. Would anything be fixed if they did it with a modified Cesarian or some other procedure? Would it somehow improve the situation and make it tolerable if they didn't do that actual brain-sucking thing?

Your banning of this particular thing doesn't change the outcome for that child at all. But it can have grave consequences for the mother. A Cesarian is far from risk-free. It's a heck of a lot more dangerous for her, and makes all future pregnancies more risky. Please remember there are two lives here on the line, not just one.

Do you really think that individual decision should be in the hands of Congress? I have no problem with them saying that someone better damned skippy sure have a good reason for this, but for them to make a blanket choice and expect it to fit every medical situation is far more wrong to me.

Okay, I'll take that tall strawman standing in the back. The individual doctors doesn't "set policy". Especially not if that Congressman you supposedly trust wrote the law correctly so it can get past judicial review.

Make sure that strawman can hear me when I say not to worry his pretty little burlap head about unethical doctors because they're not involved in the decision if the policy is written correctly. You don't have to worry about some skeezy city-fied snake oil salesman you wouldn't trust to put on a bandaid horning in on it for you and yours. You and your own doctor that you say you trust are making that decision within the context of your individual case and the policy set by Congress.

Works like this. The policy is set by Congress (don't do this ever unless you have demonstrated medical necessity) and approved by the judicial branch (okay, this doesn't infringe on any Constitutional areas). Then the interested party (the woman or someone who is empowered to make her medical decisions) and the individual doctor makes a decision within the bounds of policy using his knowledge and judgement of the individual case (I'm sorry, but in this case it's the best way to get the best outcome for the patient and I'm willing to stand by that in front of some sort of review if necessary).

Since you apparently can't separate the partial birth part from the late term part of the issue and then get into the who-makes-the-medical-decisions issue and think logically about it, so I'll try to lay the whole thing out very simply.

Late Term abortion/no medical reason/D&E = bad but safer

Late Term abortion/no medical reason/any other method = bad and possibly more risky

Late Term abortion/medical reason/D&E = sad but safer

Late Term abortion/medical reason/any other method = sad and possibly risky

As far as those other procedures I was using for examples of grossness and "healing the patient", well I doubt seriously you've ever been involved with after-care for open heart surgery. I have. But I'll play your game. I submit elective hysterectomy for your discussion. It's done to sometimes prevent cancer in patients with a very bad history, and in cases where obstetrical conditions like endometriosis is really really bad.

If you're banning just the partial birth procedure, then that has to be worth a witch-burning. That's killing any potential children and in some cases the medical cause is far from clear-cut. It doesn't necessarily "heal" anything; it's done for preventative purposes sometimes. It does help the "mother" avoid the insane risks of pregnancy (in the case of the endometriosis) and improves her daily life by an order of magnitude. But you apparently don't care about that because you apparently have no concern at all for the risks of a full-term pregnancy and cannot entertain the thought of a time where it would be too risky for her to even become pregnant much less carry it to term.

Or maybe you think it's okay for the endometriosis because at least that "heals" something, but the uterine/cervical cancer prevention reason is right out. It will make absolutely certain she won't get that particularly deadly form of cancer, but we don't know 100% for sure that she would have ever gotten it even though her mother, grandmother, and two of her sisters have.

You better get ahold of your Congressman and tell him/her they better get right on this one as soon as they're done botching writing another anti-videogame law.

Civilian control of the military makes a better case for me than for you. While a civilian may "control" the military, there are two very highly trained specialist guys flying around in a big plane very very high who actually have to take the plane to it's target and drop those bombs. They are the ones who are trusted to make the decision as to whether or not that message is a real order from the President and then they will be the ones to do the job.

And that's exactly what I'm suggesting here. Have Congress set policy limiting this to medical necessity. They can carry around that very important suitcase. And have you and your ethically chosen doctor make that horrible individual choice to have to pull that lever.

Just leave your stomach and the Straw Squad out of it.